♪♪ ♪♪ -Oh, my God.

This is happening.

How are you?

-I'm very well.

-We're gonna hug.

-How are you?

-Tonight on "PBS Arts Talk"... -Are you mic'ing us up?

-...four-time Grammy Award-winning singer-songwriter Seal.

-I'm not gonna be playing.

It's not like I'm gonna be doing a gig.

-He sits down with tonight's host, legendary actor Henry Winkler... -Can I ask you a very personal question?

-Oh, of course.

-Okay.

-...on this edition of "PBS Arts Talk."

♪♪ -The first time we m-- Well, the one and only time we met was on a plane.

And I was so nervous coming up and speaking with you because you have -- I'm sure you get this all the time -- -Yeah, but not from you.

-Well, you are responsible for a lot of my outlook on life as -- as -- when I was a child.

I mean, when "Happy Days" came on in our house, that was an event.

-♪ Sunday, Monday, "Happy Days" ♪ ♪ Tuesday, Wednesday, "Happy Days" ♪ -I mean, obviously it was big in America, but I'm not sure whether you knew then how far and wide in global terms.

You gave permission for all of us not-so-cool kids to feel cool, to, you know -- -I was one of those kids.

-[ Laughs ] -I really -- I grew up not being cool at all.

And I got to play who I wanted to be, who I wasn't, so that's lovely.

Did you always know that music was inside you?

-Well, um, I always knew I could sing.

-Mm-hmm.

-I always knew that I did this trick.

-About what age?

-The first real confirmation was when I was about 11.

-Okay.

-Because I came from a household that -- I mean, there wasn't a lot of kind of verbal communication in my house growing up as a child, but my father and my mother sang.

They sang around the house.

But I never sang with them.

-Why not?

Why -- You didn't join in because...?

-Uh, I don't know, to be quite honest.

-Were you nervous?

-Maybe -- Maybe I didn't -- I didn't know that I could.

-You didn't know you could sing or you didn't know that they would invite you in?

-Both.

-Ah.

-Both, actually.

That's a very interesting question.

Like -- Because I never really thought of that.

Even if I knew I could sing, would I have sung?

But perhaps not.

It was -- It was an interesting -- -It was better to keep your distance?

-Pro-- Yeah, probably.

You know, I come from that -- that generation of, you don't speak out of turn, you speak when you're spoken to.

You know, you don't interrupt... -Right.

-...adults.

And I don't know whether or not I would have had the courage to sing in front of my parents.

-In the research, I found out that your dad was strict and maybe more.

-Yeah.

Yeah.

A little bit more.

He was -- You know, he was a troubled -- a troubled man.

You know, he'd kind of been the victim of a really tough and really harsh upbringing himself.

And from a different generation and also a different culture.

-Right.

You understand that now.

-Mm-hmm.

-When you were living it, it wasn't so easy.

-Well, to be quite honest, I think -- Obviously not to the degree that I understand it now, but I think I also understood that a lot of the stuff that I was undergoing wasn't personal.

-Right.

-And I think that that was my saving grace.

-But here's an amazing thing.

Your reputation... -Mm-hmm.

-...is a loving, wonderful dad.

Most of the time, people come from an environment, they are imprinted on that environment and then repeat it.

-Yeah, well, I had -- Well, first of all, yeah, I'm -- Yes, I am a loving dad but far from perfect.

-Well, no, I understand that.

But, still, you chose a completely different path, it seems.

-Well, that's one way of putting it.

I guess you could say -- -how would you put it?

-I would consider myself really fortunate.

-Mm-hmm.

-And I've always attributed it -- or my good fortune or my ability to break that, you know -- let's call it a vicious cycle.

-Right.

Alright.

-I've always attributed my ability to do that to the fact that when -- from the time I was born, I was given to foster parents... -Mm-hmm.

-...from the age of zero to 4, the formative years.

-Okay.

-And as we will both agree, you know, what happens in those first four years can largely dictate... -Exactly.

-...or, at the very least, lay the footprint for the rest of your life.

-Absolutely.

Absolutely.

-And these parents, this household I was born into, they were extremely loving.

They had kids of their own.

Very nice people.

And those were some of the most joyful years of my -- of my childhood... -Okay.

-...and certainly my early childhood.

And then from 4 to 6, I lived with my biological mother.

And then from 6 to 15 or 16, I lived with my father.

And then I eventually ran away from home.

-You ran away from home?

-I did, yeah.

I slept in homeless shelters, subways sometimes.

-What is interesting is that you say you're shy... -Mm-hmm.

-...you say you're quiet, and yet you have this inner something, this inner strength that allows you to go on this journey having no idea where you're ending up.

-Well, you know, there were two kind of -- There are two sides to, you know, misfortune.

On the one side, there was this extremely traumatic childhood upbringing.

You know, the iron hand, literally speaking, of my father.

-The iron hand would come down every day?

-More or less.

-More or less.

Every day.

-There was always something inside of me that -- where I knew that this wasn't normal.

I had just come from a very warm, fuzzy... -Right -...and loving environment.

And now I'm in this thing where this guy, for one reason or another, is taking his frustration out on me.

On the one side, you know, there was that, but then on the other side, you know, I developed this inner fortitude and this ability to survive.

-Can I ask you a very personal question?

-Oh, of course.

-Okay.

-That's why we're here.

So, I am -- I'm fascinated by the scars on your face.

-Mm-hmm.

-When -- When did that happen?

Were you born with -- -That happened when I was 21.

-21.

-I remember, my 21st birthday, I remember sitting on a wall, and a small spot started on one side of my face, and then it kind of got progressively worse.

It actually turned out to be a discoid lupus.

-Mm-hmm.

But you didn't know at that time.

-I didn't -- Well, no one knew at the time.

I remember going to see doctors, and no one knew what it was.

And then they put me on steroids and they kind of prodded me around.

And no one really -- This went on for ages.

-Right.

-And no one really knew.

It wasn't until fame and fortune found me that I was able actually to go and see a top specialist.

And he looked at me with a magnifying glass, and he said, "Hm.

Young man, you have lupus."

-So here you are.

You're -- Now you're in your formative, young, beginning-life stage.

So what did that do to your confidence?

-Oh, it shattered my confidence.

-Right.

-But if you were to say, now at the age of almost -- Well, I'm 60.

Upon reflection, how -- would I change anything... -Yes.

-...if I could?

Not a thing.

-Not a thing.

-These scars became a trademark.

-Your trademark.

-They became a trademark.

And, you know, as well as my voice.

But I couldn't help but be recognized.

They have taught me so much.

They've allowed me to experience a level of compassion and understanding.

-Of course.

-It's a funny old game, this journey of being a performer or being a singer or being in the public eye.

You know, it is an extremely weird and wonderful journey.

And you know yourself, you know, from being -- at a very young age, being a globally known figure, you know what it can do to our perception of -- -What it could do, yes.

-What it can do, yeah, to our perception of reality... -Absolutely.

-...is it can run havoc with it.

[ Indistinct conversations ] -When does your you picking up an instrument come into play?

-I was working at a recording studio.

I had a kind of -- some B.S.

production deal at this recording studio in London.

And I would be the tea boy or the tea and coffee boy.

So when bands would come in, I would be the guy that made the tea and the coffee for the band, you know?

I tried to get my music recognized or into record companies, and no one was interested, and I just thought they were all deaf.

And even though I didn't think my music was the best thing in the world, I just thought that I was obvious.

-Right.

-And I couldn't understand how nobody else could see that.

-Absolutely.

-And I remember getting friendly with the drummer from this one band, Big Audio Dynamite.

He made me a cassette tape, and on it was CSN, Hendrix, Zeppelin, Joni Mitchell, and a few others.

-Mm-hmm.

-I went home, and I listened to this tape.

And for a year, I didn't write a lick of music.

I listened and bought everything I could get my hands on by Zeppelin, everything from Hendrix, everything from Joni Mitchell.

And a big influence in my life was always, like, Stevie Wonder and Marvin Gaye.

And I just listened and listened and listened.

And at the end of that year, I came to a conclusion.

All of the artists that I'd been listening to, in addition to being great singers with great voices, they all played an instrument.

And I remember being again at the studio and grabbing the guitar.

And, like, I couldn't afford a guitar, but then the bands would leave their instruments at night when they would go home.

And I'd pick up their guitars.

And so, you know -- you know, I'd pick up someone's guitar, and then I'd -- then I was -- I'd be messing around with it and trying to figure things out.

And I remember that I was bashing around one day, and somebody in the studio said, "You know..." "There are two shapes, and if you understand the two shapes, you can pretty much -- pretty much you have all the chords, depending on where you play those shapes on the neck, that you would need to write a song."

So if you play this "A" shape... and then the "E" shape.

If you just move those shapes up and... ♪♪ Or if you -- You know, if you bar them... ♪♪ You can -- Just those two shapes, if you move them up and down the neck, you can play all the shapes you need to write a song.

And I thought that was fascinating.

So I remember, that night, I went -- I went -- ♪♪ That's the "A" shape, right?

♪♪ That's the "E" shape.

♪♪ "A" shape.

It's just two shapes.

♪♪ And I thought, "Oh, that sounds interesting."

And then I went from that... ♪♪ I just did that for a bit.

And then I came up with... ♪♪ ♪ But we're never gonna survive ♪ ♪ Unless ♪ ♪ We get a little crazy ♪ ♪♪ ♪ No, we're never gonna survive ♪ ♪ Unless ♪ ♪ We are a little... ♪ I thought, "Oh, that's interesting."

Then I went -- And then I... Then I figured how to put it down here.

♪♪ So I did that, and then I -- I went from that, and I went down here.

♪ Miracles will happen as we trip ♪ ♪♪ The same chords.

The same shapes.

♪♪ ♪ Though we're never gonna survive ♪ ♪ Unless ♪ ♪ We are a little crazy ♪ So, that was the first song I wrote after -- That was the first song I wrote on guitar or on an instrument.

And it was the first song that I wrote after that year of not writing anything.

-Okay.

First of all, that was beautiful... -Oh, thank you.

-...to sit here and witness that just this close.

That's number one.

Did you not play that instrument upside down?

-Yes.

Well, that's because I couldn't go restringing people's guitars in the studio.

-Absolutely.

So you figured out how to make your beautiful music on a guitar that was upside down.

-Well, I mean, it's a right-handed guitar, but I just switched it because I'm left-handed.

-Sure.

-And so it just felt natural.

-Did you make a demo?

-I did.

I made a demo of it.

And I came back in the next day and played it to the guy that owned the studio.

And I said, "What do you think of this?"

And he listened to it.

And at the end of it -- I'll never forget it -- he looked at me and he went, "Yep."

-Wow.

Just, "Yep."

-Well, he just -- But, you know, here's the thing.

I knew even before he told me -- Even before he said, "Yep"... -You knew.

-I knew.

I knew.

I gotcha.

I knew I had one.

I knew I had one.

Right from that moment, I knew it was different from everything else I had ever written before, and I knew I had one.

♪ Miracles will happen as we speak ♪ ♪♪ ♪ But we're never gonna survive ♪ ♪ Unless ♪ ♪ We get a little crazy ♪ -Now you've got a beautiful song.

-Mm-hmm.

-The man who owns the studio goes, "Yep."

And what happens?

-Well, funnily enough, I took it around, and most of the record-company executives, they said the same thing, you know?

They said, "Yeah, he's got an interesting voice and, you know... Yeah, but what is he?

Is he singing -- What is it?

Is it R&B or is it folk or is it, like -- And if it's folk, well, then why is he Black?

And if it's not R&B, well, then, what is it?"

And, yeah, you have to -- you have to understand, especially back then, the fact that a lot of these companies were called record companies is incidental.

I realized that what they were is they're investors who were looking for a return.

And like any kind of group of investors, you have to figure out how you are going to, you know -- how this thing is going to make money.

And if somebody like me comes along -- I mean, it's okay for me to sit here in hindsight and say, "Well, yeah, I would have recognized me."

But, you know, if somebody like me comes along, especially back then, who is unconventional, let's face it.

Scars on the face, you know?

-Plays an upside-down guitar.

-Plays an upside-down guitar.

-Yeah.

Is kind of singing an odd lyrics like, "Well, we're never gonna survive unless we're a little crazy."

I mean, yeah, it sounded like a hit to me, but then I could understand how, you know -- -You're a very understanding person.

-I wasn't understanding at the time.

-Okay.

What were you?

-I was just arrogant and extremely confident.

-Right.

-And just -- just unwavering.

And then, of course, I signed with my mentor and producer, you know, my elder brother that I never had -- Trevor Horn.

I signed to his record company.

-Mm-hmm.

-And that was the beginning of my career as a solo artist.

And then the first single we released was "Crazy."

And we -- Trevor and I embarked upon making my first album.

And, you know, that was kind of like my baptism of fire into the music industry.

It was -- It was great fun.

-And what happened with that record?

-That album did really well.

I think it sold 7 million albums back then, which was -- -Wow.

Let's break it down.

You're sitting by yourself.

Where does the song come from?

-Well, if I knew that, Henry, I would -- -Alright.

What comes first?

The music -- -Again, if I knew that -- There's no -- And that's -- I guess, you know -- I am passionate about a number of things.

But why music?

And I guess that's it right there.

It's because it's so unpredictable.

Every time I think I've figured out the "formula" for writing a song or making a record, it's never the same.

There is no formula.

-So you're sitting anywhere... -Okay.

An example.

-Thank you.

-I'm sitting in what we call a squat in London.

It's a kind of vacated structure.

I've got no money.

Right?

But I do have this thing called a Portastudio.

A four-track.

Right?

And what it did is that it took cassette tapes and changed them from the conventional side "A" and side "B" into having and being able to split them up into multiple tracks.

So you could get away with about 16, 17 tracks on a cassette tape.

So I'm sitting there with this device and a cassette tape trying to figure out how to work this thing.

And I come up with this idea, and I'm going, "Okay, so, if I were an orchestra..." And I couldn't play an instrument at the time.

If I were an orchestra, what would I do?

What would the strings do?

They'd be going... [ Vocalizing "Kiss from a Rose" intro ] Or would that be a flute?

Or maybe that would be a flute.

♪ There used to be a greying tower ♪ "Oh, that's interesting."

And within the space of an hour, I'd recorded 16, 17 tracks of vocals trying to figure out how to make this machine work, right?

And I came up with this thing, this kind of "Rose" song.

"Oh, that's interesting."

Didn't think it was any good.

And kind of, you know, was actually embarrassed to play it to anyone because it was a bit flowery.

So I kind of threw it in the corner and never did anything with it.

Anyway, long story short, three, four years later, it ended up on my second album, a song called "Kiss from a Rose."

-And it is your anthem.

-It's the anthem.

-It's your anthem.

-Where did that come from?

I have no idea.

♪ My eyes become large and ♪ ♪ The light that you shine can't be seen ♪ ♪ Baby, I compare you ♪ ♪ To a kiss from a rose on the grey ♪ -You have traveled now on your own, writing and singing.

You have this big record.

7 or 8 million.

-Mm-hmm.

-Now you're traveling.

It must be a whole other kettle of fish.

-There's an old adage.

"Be careful of what you want.

You might get it."

-Right.

-And so I'd gone from being no one to being Seal.

♪♪ -Now you've got a big record.

You've got to come up with another record.

-Hm.

-Is the pressure unbelievable?

Or you just think, "Hey, I know how to do this"?

-There was pressure, but it wasn't, you know -- It wasn't unbelievable.

To be honest, Henry, I was just -- I was just having fun.

-But writing is hard, Seal.

Come on.

-Yeah.

Yeah.

-It is difficult.

And you have to -- -But it's not.

-You have a number-one record, and now you have got to -- "Alright.

Show me what you can do for us this time."

-Yeah, but, like, you got to take it all with a pinch of salt.

Smokey Robinson once said something to me, and I'll never forget it.

It was one of the best pieces of advice anyone ever gave to me.

He said, "You know what?

We're not the first, and we won't be the last."

-And that just sat with you.

-And -- Yeah.

It's not kind of open heart surgery or being a pediatric, you know, cancer doctor.

I make music.

I just -- It's really simple.

I write songs.

-Yeah, but you know what, though?

Music for that cancer patient is very important.

-Yeah, but -- -Music is really important to me because I can't make it.

If I could wish for something, I would wish that I could sing or write music or make music.

-Listen.

I write songs.

And I sing them to the best of my ability.

And one of two things happens.

Either they connect with people and they like them or they don't.

-Yeah.

-I've been blessed with a voice.

-Yes.

-And not everyone has this voice.

-No.

-This singing voice.

But everyone has a voice, though.

-I have a voice.

-And you've just got to find out what it is.

-But mostly it's for talking.

-But you've just got to find what it is.

And mine was singing.

But for everyone who is watching this or who is struggling or feels like they're in search of something, you have your voice.

You've just got to find it.

-Right.

-You know, where I grew up, everybody could sing.

People in my family could sing.

-Right.

Everybody on the block.

-Everyone on my block could sing.

Some people could sing -- They sang better than I could, right?

But I can tell you this, Henry.

You will not find one kid that believed harder than I did.

-Okay.

There you go.

There you go.

-I believed harder than -- Until this day, I really believe that it was my belief that persevered.

It wasn't that I wanted it so badly or I dreamt bigger than -- That's not what happened.

I didn't dream bigger than other people.

I knew.

I just knew it.

-So, I am from New York.

-Mm-hmm.

-I grew up in a German Jewish family.

My watchwords are "tenacity" and "gratitude."

Your life is tenacity and gratitude.

I am so grateful.

That's why I say I hear your story.

It is so different from mine.

And, yet, we are so connected.

-Yeah.

Yeah.

Aww.

Thank you.

-Yeah.

♪♪ ♪♪ ♪♪

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